Actual Diamond Values

Gypsy

The Centenary Diamond
#41
It makes me so mad how every time I see a gorgeous ring being sold for over 15K.
Funny how that same ring once you buy it and try to sell it back, you're lucky if you get maybe 3K. It's so sad yet frustrating at the same time. I once even told the girl that my mom and I overheard another jeweler tell this lady her diamonds were worthless. She said if they're so worthless why does everyone buy them then? I said I think it's the durability and also they have that color that sometimes just can't be copied and also just that certain something. They're 10 on the Mohs' scale. But you can't sell them back at the price you paid let alone try to make a profit.
 
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#42
You definitely get the short end of the stick when you buy a diamond from a retail store and try to sell it in the private market. You always get a better deal buying a 'used' stone and setting it in another setting. I actually perfer to buy diamonds from a retail store because you get the warranties. I have chipped my diamond twice so I will say you do use the warranty. The best trick to get the biggest bang for your buck is to go to a retail that takes trade ins. You can trade in a diamond and they will give you credit towards your new purchase. They tend to want the sale so bad they give you retail credit for your diamond. I once bought a diamond for 700.00 and they gave me 5500 credit for a new stone. I bought a diamond for 11,500 and only came out of pocket 6000.00.
 

erised

Connoisseur
#43
tncosby said:
You definitely get the short end of the stick when you buy a diamond from a retail store and try to sell it in the private market. You always get a better deal buying a 'used' stone and setting it in another setting. I actually perfer to buy diamonds from a retail store because you get the warranties. I have chipped my diamond twice so I will say you do use the warranty. The best trick to get the biggest bang for your buck is to go to a retail that takes trade ins. You can trade in a diamond and they will give you credit towards your new purchase. They tend to want the sale so bad they give you retail credit for your diamond. I once bought a diamond for 700.00 and they gave me 5500 credit for a new stone. I bought a diamond for 11,500 and only came out of pocket 6000.00.
i've been hearing a lot about this. it definitely makes me consider buying retail diamonds.
 
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#44
I've bought items on ebay before with warranties that are still honored by the store. I've got major deals, and you can trade it toward something for what the original price was (not what you paid).

But, I kinda bought what I liked and the warranty was icing on the cake on items 80% or more off retail. I had a particular ring (well a few) in mind and when I found it on ebay I snatched it (or them..hehe)!

I love how I don't have to worry about maintenance.

Don't forget about kay jewelers previously owned treasures site! It's kay jeweler's merchandise, you can opt for the warranty, and it's refurbs on what people have traded in.

I also did a google search for "pre owned jewelry" and found these sites. I still like ebay though.

http://www.bravobride.com

http://www.idonowidont.com/ (funny site)

http://www.exboyfriendjewelry.com/ (even funnier)!!
 
#45
Wink said:
Kareberry said:
tricksi said:
Well keep in mind some vendors do allow for 100% trade in for the diamonds they sell. So if you bought one for $2000 and five years later you want a larger one, you exchange back the diamond you originally bought from them and they will credit you the whole amount on a more expensive stone. You have to search around for a diamond vendor that will do that...
Does Good Old Gold do that? Anyone know?
I believe that GOG does do that, as does Wink, one of our trusted BTD vendors. I also have it on good authority that Wink buys back any of his Crafted by Infinity diamonds for 80% of what they sold for should you ever tire of the diamond for any reason. There are not many of us who do THAT!

Wubj

Wink
Spence Diamonds in Canada does that. It's one of the reasons we decided to purchase my engagement ring from them. I understand they are starting to open more stores in The States.

Can't speak highly enough about them. They're not quite the same deal as say Blue Nile but the guarantees are worth the difference.
 
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#50
A friend of mine purchased a ring for his now wife 1.5carat round, Halo setting, looks big n beautiful for about $5500 I think it was a great buy since the setting was bought at cost through family and the stone was from a private seller. The same ring at the mall would easily go for around $10k. Another friend has a act round ring, same quality purchased for $4500 uncertified from a mall jeweler, later traded in for 1.5ct in the same setting. So in total she paid around $8k. I lost my set that was about $4500 online, my husband said we can budget around $5-$6k for another. But Now I'm replacing it with almost identical set n asha stone for around $650, and it looks better. If I want to upgrade in 5 or 10yrs, I will happily purchase another asha n not have to worry about hunting for a jeweler that will give me a good trade. It just doesn't make sense to INVEST in natural diamonds, it's not a straight forward buy, it's always a game of hunting for a great bargain not to mention the environmentally and "blood diamond" issues. So I'm proud and happy to make smart purchases from now on.
 
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#51
Well, I have this to say about diamonds, which is that there is one way to buy them and get a reasonable deal.

You can buy them direct from the cutters in Europe (Amsterdam and Antwerp in particular).

When you go to Amsterdam, there are whole city blocks occupied by the diamond facilities. I was at Gassan several weeks ago (they have a monstrous showroom, and set loose stones on the spot) and prices were roughly 25% less than they would be stateside, even accounting for the VAT (which you get back as a foreigner leaving the country) and the exchange rate (which could be better).

They have cases and cases full of loose diamonds. You tell the salesperson what you are looking for and he trots off and returns with 5 or so stones at a time, and presents you with the loupe and microscope.

I looked at a 1.21 F VVS2, ideal cut round, I'd guess an HCA score around 1.6. A similar stone is currently listed on James Allen for $14,210. The stone in Amsterdam, even given the conversion, would have been about $9500. Of course it was not certified yet, since it had not come stateside, but that was their in-house gemologist's temporary cert, and that's how they sell diamonds to the American distributors, so.

The pricing really depends on how many middlemen you cut out.

Fundamentally, though, diamonds are not rare. If DeBeers were to release their held inventory of rough and cut diamonds onto the diamond market, prices would plummet to the level of lab-created gemstones as supply would be effectively infinite. Rare colors would still be rare, but white, round, brilliant cut diamonds would be a completely saturated market.

The whole desire and rarity of diamonds is a manufactured concept. The ability to buy diamonds outside of the control of DeBeers as mines were discovered in Canada, Australia, etc has lowered prices and lowered markups, as has the advent of internet buying, digital photography, and all the other tools we use that enable us to buy diamonds online.

Diamonds can't be an investment, because there is no conceivable way for them to appreciate in value unless diamonds ceased to be sold, which of course wouldn't happen as they're so common. However, their value is solely manufactured, as proven by the fact that they have basically zero value when sold outside of a retail environment.
 

gemcat

Super Moderator
#52
That is very interesting. I would love the opportunity to visit Amsterdam and see some of these diamond venues. Thanks for posting.
 
#53
Very interesting, thank you for posting!!!

Guess I will need to travel to Amsterdam to buy a diamond!

Now I will be in Africa next fall, wonder how the pricing is there.
 
#54
The major cutteries also give excellent tours. Gassan gives a lovely tour and so does Coster, but the shopping experience at Gassan is really quite worth doing.

No need to speak Dutch or German, either, the salespeople will speak flawless English.

Your stone will be set in any of their thousands of settings while you wait, it's sort of a live version of the "build your own ring" phenomenon. You get coffee and biscuits while you wait in their absolutely lovely customer's lounge.

Also, their proprietary cut, the Gassan 121, is really a sight to behold. We ended up buying one of those. Each cutting house will have their own cut (Coster's is the Royal 201, also quite spectacular) that you won't find stateside so if you have the funds and are looking for a unique piece, the diamond district in Amsterdam is truly the place to go.

Chebella, I don't have too much experience with Africa, but I do know that most rough is shipped out for cutting to the Netherlands and other places in Europe, as well as some Asian nations, so your success at finding cut diamonds there may not be as good.
 
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nikkikeith

The Black Orlov
#55
wow that sounds like such an amazing experience...maybe something to do for an anniversary vaca/upgrade or something
 
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#56
Africa has gotten a lot better in recent years.. As new laws come in to place more and more cutting is being done in Africa in an effort to get the miners closer to the end customer and keep more of the money spent on diamonds in Africa..
 

Wink

The Imperial Diamond
#58
Nasubi said:
I think this article was referred to earlier in the thread. Basically explains why diamonds are a bad investment.

"Have you ever tried to sell a diamond?" Interesting stories how value really is in the eye of the beholder.
http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diamond/chap20.htm
LOL, Epstein has been saying that the diamond market was finished since back in the late 1970s or early 1980's. He really hates the diamond market. Since then the market has gone up and down but more up than down and thus it has always been and thus it will always be...

Wink
 
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Wink

The Imperial Diamond
#59
figment said:
Well, I have this to say about diamonds, which is that there is one way to buy them and get a reasonable deal.

You can buy them direct from the cutters in Europe (Amsterdam and Antwerp in particular).

When you go to Amsterdam, there are whole city blocks occupied by the diamond facilities. I was at Gassan several weeks ago (they have a monstrous showroom, and set loose stones on the spot) and prices were roughly 25% less than they would be stateside, even accounting for the VAT (which you get back as a foreigner leaving the country) and the exchange rate (which could be better).

They have cases and cases full of loose diamonds. You tell the salesperson what you are looking for and he trots off and returns with 5 or so stones at a time, and presents you with the loupe and microscope.

I looked at a 1.21 F VVS2, ideal cut round, I'd guess an HCA score around 1.6. A similar stone is currently listed on James Allen for $14,210. The stone in Amsterdam, even given the conversion, would have been about $9500. Of course it was not certified yet, since it had not come stateside, but that was their in-house gemologist's temporary cert, and that's how they sell diamonds to the American distributors, so.

The pricing really depends on how many middlemen you cut out.

Fundamentally, though, diamonds are not rare. If DeBeers were to release their held inventory of rough and cut diamonds onto the diamond market, prices would plummet to the level of lab-created gemstones as supply would be effectively infinite. Rare colors would still be rare, but white, round, brilliant cut diamonds would be a completely saturated market.

The whole desire and rarity of diamonds is a manufactured concept. The ability to buy diamonds outside of the control of DeBeers as mines were discovered in Canada, Australia, etc has lowered prices and lowered markups, as has the advent of internet buying, digital photography, and all the other tools we use that enable us to buy diamonds online.

Diamonds can't be an investment, because there is no conceivable way for them to appreciate in value unless diamonds ceased to be sold, which of course wouldn't happen as they're so common. However, their value is solely manufactured, as proven by the fact that they have basically zero value when sold outside of a retail environment.
Sorry to bust your bubble, but good luck with the cert from the seller. Seen too many who have been there and done that. If you can not grade the diamond yourself, well then you are fair game.

Prices are more in Amsterdam than in Antwerp as Antwerp is where the majority of the diamonds you will buy in Amsterdam are cut. Still, you must know someone, have an introduction, and know what you are doing or you will pay as much or more than you will pay in the states. (Perhaps less than US retail, but as you correctly point out, retail is facing tremendous competition from web vendors today.)

I have been in diamond buying offices and watched people pay twenty to thirty percent more than I was paying from the same parcels I had looked at earlier. Getting in the office does NOT mean you are getting the best deal, and I am sure that there are those who got better deals than I did, even though I came with introductions and have good rapport with my vendors.

James Allen is the retail face of a major European diamond manufacturer and with a certed stone I sincerely doubt that you would have been paying nearly 5 grand less than he sells the stone for as he works on VERY tight margins. If the F was a G and the VVS2 was a VS1, entirely possible once the stone was certed by either GIA or AGS, then you paid about right, but if it was an H or a VS2 then you overpaid.

I long ago quit buying stones from dealers who did their own grading as I never found one, not ONE, who was not over inflating the grade of his stones by at least one grade and often two. The only time I will buy unpapered stones is when I can inspect them and grade them myself prior to having them shipped. Then I can occasionally find a prize in a parcel.

Also your comments about DeBeers stockpile of gems is many years out of date. They liquidated a great bit of their inventory many years ago and currently hold an inventory of months rather than years worth of diamonds.

There have been no significant finds for many years now, and it takes five to ten years to bring a mine from discovery to meaningful production. Add the declining production from today's mines to the increased demand from the Chinese and Indian markets and you have a tremendous squeeze in availability that is driving the world price of diamonds up at the same time our economy here in the States is trying to drag the pricing down. Currently rough costs more to buy and produce than the finished can be sold for here in the States, but the Chinese and Indian markets are happy to get the diamonds that we will not.

I make my living buying and selling gems, and I wish it was as easy to go to Antwerpen and buy diamonds cheap and then sell them dear as you make out. I would live there half the year if it were so.

Wink
 
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#60
Ah, well Wink, I have no intention of selling the diamond so no real plan to buy low and sell dear. Simply no desire to pay markup here to James Allen since, as you point out, they are the front for a European diamond manufacturer.

Since I was there anyway, and looking for an 80th birthday gift for my grandmother, it made sense to purchase it there. After all, I saved quite a bit by not having to pay the 19% VAT on luxury goods (only had to pay 4% duty on the American side).

I haven't had the stone graded yet because I'm lazy, but it will go out to be graded and I guess we'll see. Even if it comes out a grade lower, then my price was fair for a lower graded stone, instead of excellent for a higher graded one. That was the gamble I took, but I wasn't comfortable buying a diamond online and this way I could see what I was buying and know I liked it.

For what it's worth, my appraiser, who is obviously a gemologist, agreed with the color and clarity information I was given, though obviously it will need to be certified to be sure.

I'm sure being a dealer you can get better deals. However we the retail paying public can't, even with the online model that exists today. I certainly wasn't going to pay $14,000+ for a stone, so if I feel I got a fair deal, then so be it.
 
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