I'm so confused! H&A moissy vs FB vs Diamonna...

Discussion in 'Moissanite Forum' started by Mschichi, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. wiigal

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    @mshzzle How important is Axial Symmetry in those F1 certified reports? The one I am looking at lists it as Very Good instead of Excellent. Is this an important feature/aspect of the stone?

    Everything else on the report looks pretty ideal and follows your benchmarks listed in this thread.
     
  2. mshzzle

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    It is important, as it is the relation from the culet to the center of the table on-axis. It affects how the upper and lower facets line up correctly (from an angular matter) for light return.

    This image shows an asymmetrical diamond from it's axial point of view. The more the upper facets are off-axis from the lower, the worse the light performance will be because the angles are off.

    [​IMG]



    Likely this moissanite looks more like this, with an axial symmetry being off by about degree from the culet to the center of the table. This results in about 2 degrees of differentiation from one side to the other as shown in the diagram. This much difference will largely go unnoticed to the eye.
    [​IMG]

    If the light performance gradings are high enough to satisfy you, I say buy it and take a look. If you end up not likin git you can return it. Unfortunately, F&B has a pretty immovable restocking policy. They charge you but hold it as a credit to your account. You can't get your money back on that 10% or whatever it is, but they will let you use it towards another purchase at no penalty.
     
    #42 mshzzle, Jan 3, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
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  3. wiigal

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    @mshzzle Thanks for the very informative lesson. I learned a lot. Really appreciate the time you spent to answer my question.

    I think I will wait on the certified moissanite for another one with stellar ratings in every aspect. Plus the CAD/USD exchange rate is terrible right now and adds to the cost of the stone.

    If there was no restocking fee I would have ordered it already just to see it in person. If it looks good to my eye i would keep it. But with the 15% fee it's quite a lot in case i return it. I'm looking at a larger size stone so 15% is quite significant. There's nothing else I want on their website so giving it back to me as a credit is useless there is another moissanite available within the year that is stellar.

    Plus I emailed them a question like several days ago and I have still have not received a response from them. I realize it is new years, but still. I run an online business and I respond to emails everyday all day long. So I am not impressed with the customer service portion right now.
     
  4. mmascall

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    My son works in a business that is concerned about the impact of Trump's presidency on the Canadian economy and they actually predict a further devaluation of the Canadian dollar :( It's a real bummer 'cause it's going to affect my sparkly budget if it turns out to be an accurate predction.
     
  5. Cricketgrrl

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    All the more reason to get your sparklie project started, @mmascall! :D
     
  6. wiigal

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  7. Laurie

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    I have a stunning 10mm Forever One that performs Excellent......Its also a sparkle bomb with an excellent cut.. I have owned many Moissanite stones over the years so when I buy, I immediately return to the seller what does not have an excellent cut to my eye... with years of owning and buying Moissanite , I now feel my eye tells me what it is a excellent cut and what is not.... My 10mm Forever one Moissanite stone is not certified , nor would I pay to have one that is..... but it is a nice option for some get a peace of mind buying this way...
     
  8. wiigal

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    Nevermind...looks like someone purchased it...
     
  9. mmascall

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    I don't think it's sold. I think Laurie likes the purchaser to contact her before buying. Linky: Reduced again.. F1 10mm Mark Morrell Style DKlass : Moissanite Center Stone

    I know I'm very tempted - but it would totally be out of my comfort zone size wise (for now :D!) It looks gorgeous :) and a good buy with that amaaazing setting.
     
  10. Zeno

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    I have a question. What's the difference between C&C F1 moissanites vs C&C H&A F1 moissanites? Did they just release the H&A F1 moissanites recently?
     
  11. mshzzle

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    The difference is in the cut shape. Regular F1 is cut to maximize sparkle, fire and brilliance because it surpasses diamond in those regards. Light bends stronger in moissanite than it does diamond. Hearts and arrows H&A cuts look more like a diamond in the facet geometry as well as optical performance.

    Some people don't like the regular moissanite cut because it's "Too sparkly". I think that a silly opinion because isn't that what it's all about, the sparkles?

    Others dislike the regular F1 cut because it has flatter proportions. The height is proportionally shorter to its width than diamond by a noticeable amount with a large table facet. Some people don't like that including myself. Up close, if you know the difference it's apparent. From 2 feet away, you will never know.
     
  12. Zeno

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    @mshzzle

    Thank you for the response. In the previous post in this thread, you state how important it is to get a grading report for a C&C regular F1. "Only the EX/EX/EX cuts with optical performance grades deep into the Excellent grade (Brilliance of at least 180, Sparkle of at least 80 and Intensity of at least 300) are the ones you want. Don't bother with anything else."

    Does this also apply to C&C H&A F1 cut moissanites? Should I get a grading report for the H&A cut moissanites at all? If so, what are some of the attributes I should look for and where should I get one? Fireandbrilliance only sells grading reports for C&C regular F1's, right?

    Thanks.
     
  13. mshzzle

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    This doesn't apply to H&A cut because they are all EX/EX/EX cut (should be anyways). You will have some variation in the accuracy of the cut but they will all be "Excellent" in cut. Optical performance will NOT be as good as non-H&A F1 moissanite regardless if it is cut to microscopic perfection because the facet angles not being optimal for the stone's refractive index. However, the optical performance will still be very good. This applies for every H&A moissanite stone including Amora, Diammona, etc.


    Non-H&A cut F1 has a huge variation in cut quality, a huge problem that C&C continues to fail to address. They claim they will all be cut to high standards but it's simply not the case. Some get even "Good" or "fair" grades in certain aspects of the cut grade. That's pitiful. That's why having a comprehensive and accurate lab report be available with non-H&A so you know you are not going to get a dud.

    Even picking one out by eye alone is not going to give you the best stone in this case. However, if you have 3 stones all grading EX/EX/EX then picking one out by eye is definitely the way to go. A cut grade report itself doesn't truly tell you its optical performance and sparkle. The lab report F&B provides DOES have optical performance analysis done so it removes the guesswork from everything.

    If you want an H&A cut, my suggestion would be to order an Amora Eternity, F1 and a Dimaonna (name is changing on this brand due to branding issues) and compare them to see which you like. They all have their pros and cons.
     
    #53 mshzzle, Mar 23, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
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  14. talk-admin

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    Hi Mshzzle,
    I want to address a couple points here that are not correct:

    1 - "Optical performance will NOT be as good as non-H&A F1 moissanite regardless if it is cut to microscopic perfection because the facet angles not being optimal for the stone's refractive index. "

    This is not true. You are referring to the F1 "flat top" cut as being optimal for the refractive index of moissanite and/or the 'best cut' but that is not correct. Whether in diamond or moissanite, if you cut a stone with a very flat top (thin crown) you effectively render the stone like a mirror. As a result, in *high intensity* lighting, a mirror will maximally reflect light back more than one with a crown that redistributes the light more evenly and in a symmetrical pattern.
    Thus the flat top crown will always look really good in very high intensity lighting - it's the most direct in-out light return. It also has the benefit of being much cheaper to produce simply because you need a lot less rough if you aren't going to cut a proper crown.

    However, why don't H&A diamonds, Amora, etc. all go the flat top crown route? For the Amora our goal was/is to produce the ultimate gem - so shouldn't we be cutting flat tops?
    No - Because in all other lighting - diffuse, office, most day to day living scenarios, etc. - the higher crown will outperform because it does distribute the light more ensuring more beauty in those scenarios. A flat top crown will suffer from dark centers, dull look etc. in many lighting scenarios resulting in very different appearance depending on the lighting. Even the previous H&A moissanite suffered from the dreaded 'dark center' effect. You can read the history of H&A diamond to learn more about all the work that went into H&A development.

    For the Amora Eternity our goal was to produce a cut that performed strongly in all lighting scenarios and maximized the Amora's light handling, and not great in one and poor in many others. I will elaborate on this in more detail soon along with Idealscope images, etc to prove the point now that our production has finally stabilized and we can start thinking about marketing again.

    2 - "The lab report F&B provides DOES have optical performance analysis done so it removes the guesswork from everything."
    No, it doesn't. Most lab reports are simply a grading under high intensity lighting and unless you walk around with a spotlight on your stone, it's not a realistic evaluation. That's why if you watch Jonathan at GoodOldGold's videos, he reviews stones in roughly 5 different types of lighting..not just spotlighting. A lab that graded in 4 or 5 common lighting scenarios would be far more realistic - and in fact we are discussing just that with a lab right now. :)

    And even Imagem will tell you that their light grading report is not enough since it's basically a high intensity lighting test - they also note that you should look for a symmetrical pattern (i.e. H&A) over a random look that you will get in an F1 flat top.

    This is also apparently why BrillianceScope which everyone thought would be the 'be all, end all' for diamond optical grading went by the wayside - cut a flat top that looked atrocious in real lighting, but watch it max out the brilliancescope which is blasting it with super intense lighting...a result that is hardly reproducible on your finger. Now diamonds that otherwise look like garbage are suddenly king of the hill in the unrealistic lighting scenario and considered the best by brilliancescope when they aren't in reality...and eventually people realized that and dealers got rid of their brilliancescopes.

    3 - "If you want an H&A cut, my suggestion would be to order an Amora Eternity, F1 and a Dimaonna (name is changing on this brand due to branding issues) and compare them to see which you like. They all have their pros and cons."

    This I will agree on :) We'll take that bet every day of the week with a 40 day, no questions, return policy.

    Best regards,
    Less
     
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  15. Loveatfirstdish

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    is this to say that for the stone of moissanite h and a isn't the best cut, really shouldn't be "excellent" and h and a is more suited for a diamond.
     
  16. mmascall

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    Yes.
     
  17. rory12

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    Hi mshzzle,

    I've ordered an Eternity H&A and looking forward to receiving it. One thing I didn't like from the previous AG cuts was the very small table percentage, you can clearly see that it has a tiny table in many of the videos, so I'm hoping the new Eternity doesn't have that problem.

    p.s I noticed that the depth % can vary a lot (from 62 to 27) on even the new Eternity H&A inventory (dividing the height by the average diameter), I went with a 62.4% (although girdle information is unknown).

    Edit. Removed initial question because it has been answered before
     
    #57 rory12, Apr 24, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  18. talk-admin

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    Hi Rory,
    The table on the new Eternity is basically perfect :) It's larger than the previous AG cuts and now proven to be optimal. And much better table % than Moissanite.

    The depth % varies due to girdle thickness variations. The faceted pavilion however ends up the same size so doing a depth % is misleading because some will have thinner or thicker girdles with identical optical performance. If all the girdles were identical, then the depth % would also be effectively identical unlike with hand cut stones.

    The girdle thickness is affected by having to remove the Amora's from TIGER, then doing a separate process to flip to cut the other half, then back onto TIGER. It's the one non-robotic operation and as such has the most variation though we are steadily decreasing that variance over time.

    Hope that helps,
    Less
     
  19. rory12

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    Hi Less,
    Yeah that's awesome, thanks for the detailed clarification as always.
    I was concerned that the table percentage might vary depending on the stone height, so it's good to hear that everything else stays fixed except the girdle height.
    I prefer a thin/medium size girdle so it's also great you provide the exact dimensions to effectively work this out. I believe the one I chose (~62.40%) should be around that :)

    On a previous note, could you shed some light on the 50/50 composition ratio of the AG and how is it that it differs to the 70/30 natural moissanite ratio from the above study?
    It does mention in the study that they found some natural moissanite to have 5-7% more carbon than the 70/30 ratio (so I guess 35-37% carbon), but given the AG is lab made, is that what gives you the control to increase carbon content to 50% (excuse my chemistry)?
    Cheers
     
  20. talk-admin

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    Hi
    Hi Rory,
    Glad the info helped!

    Re: composition - I don't see a study above in this thread but happy to discuss. Can you start a new thread expressly on it though so the info doesn't get buried under this longer thread?
    The short answer though is 50:50 is crystal perfection. Natural may go to one extreme or the other in ratio, but it would affect it's optical properties for the worse and is likely the result of not enough of one atom relative to the other so it's making do with environmental shortcomings (think wild plant vs greenhouse...). All 250+ Silicon Carbide crystal types will ideally be 50:50, it's the layering and stacking that then affects their physical/optical/mechanical properties much like graphite vs diamond...same composition,very different properties.
    We control carbon/silicon by using two separate carrier gasses for each atom type, and then a couple other 'mixer' gasses that don't get involved inside the crystal but help ensure ideal distribution and thus composition during growth.

    Hope that helps,
    Less
     
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